Agency Minder^® Episode 003 Kevin Jackson

This transcript has been lightly edited for readability.

Manny Bartolini: Hey, everybody. This is Manny Bartolini, CEO and founder of Agency Minder. This is episode three of the Mind Your Business podcast, the podcast for professionals who have agency over their business. Today you have a special treat. We're going to talk with Kevin Jackson about transparency and work, and he's got some great stories, lots of rich history, things that we can all think about as we look at improving the business relationships that we have. So without further ado, let's talk to Kevin Jackson. So I'm here with Kevin, a friend of mine, longtime friend. Kevin, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Kevin Jackson: Hey, man, how are you doing today?

Manny Bartolini: Doing great.

Kevin Jackson: That's good. All right, a little bit about myself. Just personally, as a father of four grown kids in college, I live in Northeast Ohio, and I have been working in a wide variety of different companies and a wide variety of different roles and have a lot of different experience.

Manny Bartolini: That's awesome. That's one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you because of that experience. And so before we discuss any of the professional aspects of your life, if listeners want to reach out to you afterwards, what would be the best way for them to get in contact with you?

Kevin Jackson: Probably the best way would be through LinkedIn. And they can look me up under my name, Kevin Jackson. And I will be happy to share the email address if they want to go direct. [Email address in the show notes.]

Manny Bartolini: That's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that. And we'll make sure to post that in the show notes as well. So tell us a little bit more about your professional background. I know that you've got a lot of experience, so tell us some perspective on that.

Kevin Jackson: Sure, I'll go quick, but I'll cover everything. So out of school, which was University of Colorado in Boulder, I went back to upstate New York, Rochester. I worked for a very small company that did speaker support material for executives, C-suite folks doing their analyst calls, excuse me, their national sales meetings, doing all of the presentation support for folks in that role. I then went on to an advertising agency again in upstate New York. We worked with three big clients, I was an account executive: Kodak, Xerox, and Bausch and Lomb.

And that was a while ago. We all know that some of those companies have done well, and some not so much. And then I went to Constellation Brands, which is beverage alcohol. It's in the Finger Lakes region of New York. Spent five years there. Most of the time was in consumer promotions and managing promotions for about half the portfolio, which was roughly about 28 different brands. So very big portfolio, and they've had an unbelievable amount of success the last decade or so. And then work took me to Chattanooga, Tennessee, where I worked at Brach's Confections as a seasonal confections manager.

So anything at Halloween, Christmas, Easter. I managed all those sales, and one of them used to be Smucker's jelly beans, so I formed a relationship with the J.M. Smucker Company. And after a couple of years down in Tennessee, Smucker's bought Jif and Crisco from Procter & Gamble in 2002. I picked up the phone, made a call. Long story short, I started as a marketing manager managing the Jif peanut butter brand, worked my way up into a director role. And then Smucker's bought Folgers and the licensing agreement for Dunkin' Donuts from Procter & Gamble.

And I managed that integration from a marketing perspective. I led marketing, vice president of marketing on coffee for several years. And then I moved into our away from home or our food service division. I became the general manager of that division, ran that division for a couple years. I was then asked to run our sales team, the U.S. retail sales team, which I did for several years. And then they also gave me back the away from home or food service division. So the general manager of that division, my old role, reported into me.

And then all of the sales support functions, whether it's revenue growth management, category management, sales operations, our innovation center, all of that also reports into me as well. And that takes us to where we are today.

Manny Bartolini: That's a fantastic repertoire. So you've had experience with production, advertising agency, sales promotions, retail sales, marketing, away from home. That's a ton. So tell me a little bit about some of the types of relationships that you've managed in your current role.

Kevin Jackson: Sure, all kinds. I mean, I've got relationships that are transactional, I would say, where you literally are just potentially not even making a relationship. It could be all done on the computer or email. And I manage relationships that are longstanding, decade-long relationships that we've had as a company with other organizations where we're truly in a partnership with one another to try to grow our respective businesses. And the best way to do it is to do it together. And so if we win, they win, they win, we win. And every type of relationship in between.

Manny Bartolini: That's fascinating for me. So when you think about those types of relationships, are there any particular relationships, third-party, enduring non-employee relationships that you are actively managing at the moment?

Kevin Jackson: Non-employee, help me understand that a little bit.

Manny Bartolini: Sure, so like you mentioned that you have retail sales responsibilities and so presumably you've got some brokers or people that aren't employees that are doing a lot to help build your business.

Kevin Jackson: Yes, yes, yes, plenty of those. Yeah, we have a very large broker network. A significant portion of our sales are managed through a broker network, Advantage, and we are in constant communication with them. They are, you know, some of these folks who are not Smucker employees do represent the Smucker brands on a daily basis and potentially full-time. So it is a very collaborative relationship that we have with our broker network as an example.

Manny Bartolini: So I know, I get the sense that there's a lot of them and they're distributed across the country, presumably.

Kevin Jackson: They are nationally, yes.

Manny Bartolini: That's great. So I'd like to focus a little bit on that relationship if we could, because I think one of the things we're trying to do with Agency Minder is help people understand how to manage those relationships and a key component of that is trust. So with trust being such an important component of this, they're representing your brands even when you're not there. Tell me how you started to build that and how you maintain that trust with your brokers.

Kevin Jackson: Well, I think it starts with education, number one. Make sure they understand who we are as a company, what we represent as a company. They need to understand the brand that they are going to sell into the different retailers and our retail partners. They just need to understand the history of the company where we came from, that we're in the fifth generation, family run but publicly traded. And they just need to really start to embrace who we are as a company so that they can represent us when they're making a call on a retailer to sell some of our brands.

And a lot of it is basic communication. You know, a lot of the stuff we learned when we were very young, just being open, being transparent, having candid conversations, sometimes having difficult conversations, yet at the same time, also having rewarding conversations where you're complimenting them on some of the work that they've done, especially if they've hit certain sales targets or goals. You know, you celebrate your successes and you continue down the path.

Manny Bartolini: And so when you started that relationship, I love what you're sharing about. You want them to know your history, you want them to embrace who you are as a company. And so that sounds like that happens before you even start talking about the nitty-gritty of like, here are the products we want to sell. But how did you get to know that part of your business team? So how did you get to, or were they even transparent with themselves? Did they share a similar type of background from them?

Kevin Jackson: Sure, absolutely. And a lot of this takes place, you know, when you're in the office, doing more of a formal setting. But at the same time, some of this takes place outside of work when you're having dinner, more of a relaxed setting, maybe even potentially socially, if you get to know some of these folks where you're actually going to have a relationship outside of the work. But, you know, you have to understand the goals and objective of each organization. We also have to understand, you know, what makes different organizations tick, what do they stand for, what do they represent, and partner together.

And it's got to work. It really does have to work. If you don't have the same goals or if you're going in different directions, the relationship is never going to work.

Manny Bartolini: No, I think that makes a ton of sense. And then actually, you know, when I think about the types of information that they shared, if all they ever shared was some type of financial metric that was trying to reinforce how they would deliver for you, I think you'd probably be underwhelmed. You know, there's got to be something about, because your company is so mission focused, you've got such high aspirations to the type of impact you want to have. Did you get anything like that from them when you brought them on board?

Kevin Jackson: Well, you know, we've had a relationship with this particular organization for literally close to 30 years, so the relationship was formed before I got in the seat that I was in to manage it. But when I took over the relationship, I wanted to learn more about them. Who were they as an organization? Who was their leader? Where did they come from? How do they represent their company? And it just so happens that the head of their organization used to be a Smucker employee. So the fact that that exists, yeah, so she knew who we were as a company.

She knew what we stood for. She understood our mission, our vision, our values. And, you know, it's unbelievably beneficial when you have two organizations that are working together. The numbers are critically important. Don't get me wrong. And we're all in business to make some money. And, you know, I think we do a good job doing that. But to do it successfully, there's got to be trust. There's got to be some vulnerability. There's got to be a relationship that goes beyond the numbers and the... you know, or the spreadsheet, if you will, of the sales numbers.

Manny Bartolini: Absolutely, could not agree with you more on that, Kevin. So considering that, so there's more than just the numbers, presumably there's some mechanism for you to be able to give them feedback. Obviously, if they're not hitting the numbers, it's pretty clear, but are there any other mechanisms that you use to give feedback to them?

Kevin Jackson: Sure. So individuals in our team do a quarterly or on my team do a quarterly review. And I am involved in an annual review. So once a year, sure, we start with the numbers. We see how they did if they hit target or didn't hit target. Their best division or department that does the best, we give them a little extra bonus or incentive. And all of that is great. All of that is wonderful. But the fact is just getting together annually, you know, breaking bread, if you will, having a, sharing a meal, potentially doing something, you know, recreationally with one another, getting to understand how their year was as a company, because they don't just work for our company, is vitally important.

And you have to have those on the calendar. They're easy to, you know, maybe not attend or just keep pushing back, but you just have to have the annual meeting where you're talking about the business clearly. But then you're also talking about strategy, goals, objectives, what's changed, what's the same. You know, make sure your scorecard, you know, you're both looking at the same scorecard because if their objectives are different than your objectives, then you're going to easily get off track and neither team's going to start winning.

Manny Bartolini: Yeah, it's interesting you say that. So one of my previous guests was talking about the importance of team. And so in a team, there are very few sports where an individual can actually take the team and win a team sport. And so it sounds like you want to make sure that they're successful because by being successful, they can help you deliver on your objectives. Am I hearing that right?

Kevin Jackson: Oh, absolutely. I want them to be successful just as much as they want to be successful. And I know that that organization wants us to be successful just as much as we want to be successful. Because if one of us is really successful and the other one isn't, that relationship can't last very long. It just won't. You both have to be successful.

Manny Bartolini: Agreed. And so when you have those meetings, I get it that they give you, you guys look at the numbers, you see how everything's growing out, you make an open effort to spend some time, get to know them a little bit better. Is there a point at which they provide feedback to you about your team, and if so, how often?

Kevin Jackson: They do, and that's annually. And so for me, as I manage the total relationship on the annual review, I do ask them to provide feedback of my direct report that are working with their team. And we do it through a certain format, and they fill it out. And then, you know, we talk about pros and we talk about cons, or we talk about what's working well and what are the improvement opportunities. And it's candid. And if something's not working, I need to know about it, you know, just as much as if I think something's not working on there, and they need to let me know that they think something's not working on our end.

And you have to address it. And that's where my earlier conversation about making tough decisions, sometimes you need to make tough decisions, and you might need to move an individual that's on a certain part of the business if it's not performing and put somebody else in there.

Manny Bartolini: I think that's critically important. You know, we'll talk about it in a little bit, but there's an element of how you address that, that I think is really critical. So, Kevin, you've been super forthcoming so far. And so the next couple of questions, I'm going to ask you to be just a little bit more vulnerable if you might. So, and it's related to the comment you just made. So at Agency Minder, we have a motto that no jerks are allowed.

Kevin Jackson: It's good, I like it.

Manny Bartolini: And so without naming any names, can you share a time when someone with whom you had a professional relationship was a jerk or somehow violated your trust or the trust of your team? You've got a large team. How did you feel about then? What did you do about it?

Kevin Jackson: Okay, so I'll give you a good one, and this is a big one personally for me, but I think it falls right in the crosshairs of maybe somebody that would identify as a jerk or maybe, you know, a relationship is two-way and you have trust and you have respect and you need to have things work out, especially if somebody gives you their word. So the example for me is I was at an organization where my boss, my direct report, wanted me to go into a different role and do a different assignment, of which I was not very interested in.

And after a couple different discussions, they said, if you go and take this role, then when the next role opens up where my interest was, they said, you'll be the candidate and you will move into that seat. I just need you to do this role first. So I did that role, a role that I didn't really enjoy very much, but I did the best I possibly could at that role and did it pretty well, I might add. And then this area where the individual promised me where I could go, when it did open up, I didn't get it.

I was not moved into that area. And when I asked why, I said, look, you made me a promise. I've delivered on the current role that I'm in, I've delivered against all the objectives that you set forth, and I need to be moving into this other area. Basically this individual looked at me and said, I made you a promise, I'm breaking the promise and you're not going to go over there. So beyond disappointing, obviously, and lost all kinds of credibility and respect for that person.

Manny Bartolini: Oh, absolutely. I can only imagine the frustration that you must have felt at that moment. And frankly, if that's an organization with which you would choose to stay, boy, talk about demotivating.

Kevin Jackson: Right. And at the end of the day, the fact is I didn't choose to stay. I moved on because I couldn't continue to work for an individual that no longer I had any trust in what they said. I just didn't. And that was the biggest thing because it was my career. I was made a promise and the promise wasn't kept. So I knew that he would be saying other things that he couldn't, that may or may not come true. And so I just couldn't trust him anymore.

So I moved out of the organization. And it was a big change. Family, four kids, big changes when you decide to take a little bit of a change in your career.

Manny Bartolini: Oh yeah, no, I can appreciate it. It must have been difficult for you and your family, but all things being said and done, it looks like you've been able to compile a lot of different experiences. So as you reflect on all of your experiences, what advice would you give to a peer or perhaps someone even junior to you in the organization who is starting a new relationship with the third party? What kind of advice would you give them to help get it off on the right foot?

Kevin Jackson: In terms of another relationship that you're building. The first thing I would say is internally, I think it's always good to get a mentor. I know that wasn't specifically the question, but if you can find a mentor for your career just to help you advance your career, I think that's critically important. With a external or with a partner or somebody outside of the organization that you're going to go work with, I think you just need to be transparent. The number one word I would use is transparent.

Let them know what your goals and objectives are when you enter into the relationship. Ask them what their goals and objectives are when you enter into the relationship so you both understand each other. Be open, be candid, be transparent, and make sure you put everything on the table. And that way, when you establish that relationship, and if you look back, and this has happened, because if you have a relationship that you establish, and it gets into the third, fourth, fifth, or sixth year, you're going to look back and you're going to say, remember that first meeting?

Remember how open we were? You know how transparent we were. We knew what we wanted from one another, and we're able to set out on a certain goal.

Manny Bartolini: Yeah, love that. It's like any personal relationship you might choose to start off on, like, the more transparent you...

Kevin Jackson: Could be up front.

Manny Bartolini: Absolutely. I guess the difference is that when you tell someone, when you tell a lady when you first meet him that you're ready to get married, that can be a little bit off-putting.

Kevin Jackson: Yeah, I don't know if I'd go that transparent at the very beginning.

Manny Bartolini: So there's a limit of transparency.

Kevin Jackson: There's definitely a limit of transparency. And candidly, if it's a billable account or if it's, you know, you're going to start having a business where you're interacting financially, you know, there's always going to be some negotiation. You don't want to just open up the books right at the beginning.

Manny Bartolini: Oh, of course, of course. Yeah, because you need to make sure that I always start and assume trust, but there has to be an element of demonstration of that commitment both ways. So I think that's totally fair.

Kevin Jackson: And, you know, and we do live by, or I live by, assume good intent. I mean, that's sort of my motto, assume good intent. And I always do with anybody I work with until they prove me wrong or prove me otherwise. And once they do that, you know, it is, for me personally, it's hard to get back on my good side if I've lost my trust or respect in you because, you know, you did something that broke the trust we had established.

Manny Bartolini: Sure, sure, no, I can appreciate that. So, now you've, as I said before, have had this wonderful experience. What types of things do you think as you reflect upon you and your personal opportunities? This is where I think the vulnerability really comes in. What do you think you could do differently with your behavior to make your business relationships even better than they are today?

Kevin Jackson: You know, I think being vulnerable is important. I think, again, understanding each other is really important. I think understanding folks, when you have a very serious relationship with another organization or another company, I think when you let your guard down a little bit, once you've established that relationship, it's not necessarily a bad thing. And if you both are, again, sort of heading for the same target and heading in the same direction, and you both know that, it's really, really, really important. And that can be with JBPs or Joint Business Planning.

That can be with annual metrics that you can take a look at. There's lots of different ways to take a pass at formulating the right goals that you're going after. They need to get to know you. They really do need to get to know you and that's important.

Manny Bartolini: I agree. And I think you've done a great job of letting us and our listeners get to know you a little bit, Kevin. So before we wrap it up, is there anything else you'd like to share about the value of building positive business relationships?

Kevin Jackson: You know, just do your homework. You know, if it's a brand new relationship and you're thinking about partnering with a new ad agency or a new digital agency or consumer promotions, do your homework, ask people. Reputations are something that's really hard to build, and they're very easy to destroy. And in today's world, with all of the different ways that we can communicate and do it instantaneously, if you're about to partner with another organization, you just need to ask a few questions to a few people, and you're going to know if that organization is right for you. It really is so much easier than it used to be.

Manny Bartolini: I agree. There's so much more data available to even help understand how people are doing. So if you are interested in getting a hold of Kevin Jackson, you can look up Kevin Jackson in LinkedIn and his email address is [email address in the show notes]. I'll have those posted in the show notes for those of you that are interested. Kevin, thank you so much for spending some time with us today.

Kevin Jackson: Absolutely. Thank you, Manny. I really appreciate it.

Manny Bartolini: That'll do it for this episode.